a question for Justin…
I hope this is not taken as an ambush question… I am genuinely curious.
I like and respect Thomas Sowell… over the years he has earned a position of respect in my mind. I have heard him posit this point before that Colonial English folks brought over from England a “white trash” attitude. (that is my words… NOT Mr Sowell). (I observe that my expression of ‘white trash’ may be construed as racist. If you think so then so be it… I do not care… I am simply postulating my thought.) Mr. Sowell postulates that white English folks used the expressions Dis and Dat for “this” and “that”. And further he posits that the expression “AXE” as opposed to the expression “ASK” has an etemology that can be traced to the island of England.
I have joked in the past using the expression “I don’t want to be considered an “ask” murderer.”
I don’t want to put one of my long time commenters on the spot… but he and I have commented civilly on questions of Indians, Black and Whites. He seems pretty rational… (and I think he has his own blog).
So… what do you think about dat?
_________________________
From the video…
An aside…
I’ve never been inclined to write much about my “Southern Pride”… I once commented on an article from a Virginian University website (left unnamed because I did not save the comments) upon the author’s rejection of being a member of a Civil War reenactment group. This was just before the current “woke” movement. The author lamented his past mistake and stated he was wrong for ever having the racist idea of participating in a reenactment. He was insulted at my mere mention of the term “Southern Pride” Sad I thought, I was dumbfounded by it all. Little did I know that next to follow this nonsense was the “Woke” movement.
Here is an article where an author only a decade or so ago was confronted with a similar “confrontation” of this new and modern abomination of “Woke” bullsh*t. It seems to me the woke clowns are just trying to silence speech. Good luck with that clowns…
https://www.nas.org/academic-questions/31/4/race_crime_and_culture
“Southern honor did exist, did breed violence among men of every class, did cut against evangelical Christianity and the law of the state. Without the concept of honor, Southern violence remains inexplicable. Honor was the catalyst necessary to ignite the South’s volatile mixture of slavery, scattered settlement, heavy drinking, and ubiquitous weaponry. Honor thus served to set the South apart from the North, and once established honor became an integral part of the Southern identity.[7]
This southern culture of violence has long been associated with high crime rates among white southerners—in particular, violent crime. As far back as the 1870s H. V. Redfield found that murder was four to fifteen times more frequent in the southern states than elsewhere in the United States.[8] This southern proclivity for violence continued well into the twentieth century, and even endures in the twenty-first.[9]
Arguments that southern whites share a subculture of violence won’t get your book condemned. Slamming southern whites is perfectly acceptable among intellectuals and elites. It’s only when one speaks of a black subculture of violence that one steps over the line. Theoretically, of course, there’s no difference. “
If I may be so bold as to try to aid Mr. Sowell in understanding a “Southerner” and a redneck cracker (all of which I am) it is to understand “Southern Pride”. The author above alludes to it… I found his article very interesting.
I find it highly plausible that Blacks picked up on “Southern Pride”. Could it be that the odd shootings in Chicago are merely black Hatfields and McCoys?
One thing I have noticed at least in studying the Chowan River area and the Great Dismal Swamp area, is the preponderance of non-Anglo surnames. I pointed out in another post how almost all of the settlers had Welsh names, even common Welsh personal names (Hopkin Howell, Lewis Williams, David Jones, etc). There was also a large influx of French Huguenot settlers into the Carolinas (I have not even mentioned the Palatines or Highlanders). It seems some of these odd names like Battle (Battaile) and Maget (and its many spellings) might have been French in origin. Eure is a river in northern France. So you wound up with a lot of European settlers who probably did not speak English as a native language. That leaves plenty of room for “dis and dat” (which I think the Dutch would have no problem with), and whatever the Welsh speakers, and French speakers, and German speakers brought to the party. If the Quakers at Somerton in Nansemond were really from Caernarfon, then they were most likely native Welsh speakers. There is also a feature in Gates County called Drum Hill, which I have seen in an early record spelled similarly to Druim Mail or Drummaul, which is a place in Antrim in Northern Ireland. There’s a Ballahack (Ballyhack) Road in Norfolk, on the east side of the swamp. Ballahack is also a place name in Wexford, Ireland. So there were likely Irish speakers in this region as well.
justinpetrone
June 18, 2023 at 1:50 am
I added the graphic from Sowell’s video. The purple area is where you and I mainly study. I agree with you that many of Isle of Wight, Nansemond and on in to early Chowan precinct NC were from that “purple” area. Sowell seems adamant that area is where the “ghetto” language evolved from the seventeenth century. Logic dictates that the slaves must have picked it up from those colonists. I have not picked that up from the writings that I have studied… in contrast, there is no doubt that Quakers had their peculiarity with “ye” for the and “yn” for then.
I suppose I am arguing that I do not agree with Sowell that the early “purple” folks were the genesis of “ghetto” Southern lingo. Tocqueville’s observations were early to mid 1800s…
My suspicion is that the roots of “ghetto” lingo is more from the 1800s… but I am open to be convinced otherwise. His arguement of Southern rednecks moving northward and being discriminated against does not convince me that the convoluted expression of “axe” for “ask” was used in early Isle of Wight or Nansemond.
anderson1951
June 18, 2023 at 3:57 am
Wow…did I go down a rabbit hole… I started a search for any roots I could find on the terms “redneck and cracker” to be found in English history. This seems to get very “testy” rather quickly.
“I agree with your assessment of the “Celtic Thesis” and I understand your disdain for some of the mainstream books that represent history like the etch-a-sketch represents art. But all the nonsense that has been printed does not change the origin of the word, redneck. The Convenanters were called rednecks because of the red scarves the wore on their necks. Eventually, the English came to apply this term to Presbyterians in general, but especially to the more devout. Large numbers of Convenanters from the southwestern lowlands of Scotland (not a Celtic society) migrated to the Ulster plantations in the mid 1600’s. One hundred years later, there was a substantial migration of these Scots from Ulster to the American colonies. Since the land along the coast was settled, the Scots-Irish pushed out to the frontier in search of land. They invented the log cabin. They fought the natives. They pushed the frontier westward. In very many ways, their culture was very different from the English or German settlers. They located their houses far apart instead of clustering them in towns as did the English settlers. Since their language was the Ulster dialect of Scots, they spoke funny. They called their children youngins, they called their food, vittles, and their meals, fixins. Their word for gossiping or story-telling was cracking and so the friends they spent time with were their fellow crackers. Because they were Presbyterian, the English settlers called them rednecks. In a nutshell, there is a direct ethnic connection to the words, redneck and cracker. And while there is a basis for some of the sterotypes our society associates with “rednecks”, there is no justification for it. Many of the characteristics of speech that we have associated with ignorance are nothing more that cultural differences in dialect. Many of the beliefs, mannerisms, and values that we consider backward, rural, or “redneck” are reflections of the heritage of a distinct culture that has existed for hundreds of years. If you are interest is well-researched, reasoned writings about the differing cultures that have contributed to the American culture, I suggest Leyburn’s “The Scotch-Irish: A Social History” and Herman’s “How the Scots Invented the Modern World and Everything In It.”
That quote is from here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ARedneck/Archive_5
anderson1951
June 18, 2023 at 4:51 am
In my humble opinion, it comes from a “lazy tongue” regardless of race or spoken language which lacks grammatically and acceptable pronunciation of that language. It is accepted by different racial societies according to custommary dialect of that society. Use of speaking with a “lazy tongue” should not reflect economic or social status. Genisus have come from poverty, and fabulously rich and educated have sunk to desperation.
dauby13
June 18, 2023 at 8:30 am
I’m not sure I understand your point. Perhaps I can ask a more general question.
Thomas Sowell seems to be saying “ghetto language” was learned by black slaves from colonialists who emigrated from the southwest region of England. Moreover he hints or suggests that the terms “redneck” and / or “crackers” emanated from that region as well. I am just searching for some sort of “proof”… other than his opinion.
I also would venture to say that “some” colonists from, let’s say. the English Isles, did not use some terms out of a “lazy tongue” but out of ‘spite’… perhaps in a way to purposely identify their difference in their own eyes. I’m thinking that Jed Clampett from the Beverly Hillbillys may not have been as stupid as he was portrayed. How many college professors could shoot, kill, dress, cook and put a squirrel on the table for supper?
anderson1951
June 18, 2023 at 9:01 am
There are some languages that do not have a “th” sound (preserved in Icelandic as the letters “þ” (as in ‘thousand’) and ð (as in ‘that’)). Most, I think. So anyone trying to say “this” and “that” would struggle, or say “dis and dat.” As for ask/axe, I have no idea really. According to Quora, it’s a feature of some English dialects from the 17th century. Ax was the old dialect form, ask is the newer, “correct” form.
justinpetrone
June 19, 2023 at 5:55 am
Ahh… you cite the reference again…as did Sowell..
“According to Quora, it’s a feature of some English dialects from the 17th century.”
I’m curious of ‘what” English dialects of the 17th century?
anderson1951
June 19, 2023 at 7:25 am
I would like to see his evidence for such. Any statement without evidence behind it is supposition, and possibly fiction. Meanwhile, here’s some more cracker reading: https://www.amazon.com/Cracker-Culture-Celtic-Ways-South/dp/0817304584
Genieprincess
June 20, 2023 at 10:40 am
I am left wondering how the speech could be verified… I’ve read hundreds if not thousands of colonial documents and cannot recall one instance of the spelling of aks for ask. I have read numerous accounts of a white trying to mimic black lingo and using the terms dis/dat. I always thought this was a “slight” at best and obviously racist at worst. There was no method to record speech so my assumption is there must be some written account to demonstrate the speech of 17th century Britains. The Florida version of “crackers” is that they were cowboys who cracked whips to herd cattle. But I’m not aware that they dated to the 17th century and am skeptical of such. Likewise I am not familiar with British cowboys…with or without whips…. just axin’.
anderson1951
June 20, 2023 at 5:05 pm
Basically, I don’t know is my answer. But if European languages lack a “th” sound (I have taught English to Estonian and Finnish people, who say dis, and dat, and then roll the r, like in Spanish, so ‘there’ becomes ‘derrrre’) then I would imagine that West African languages might also lack that sound. In the meantime, speaking on Indians, I continue to pull up genetic cousins on Ancestry who descend from those characters, Colson, Harrington, Whitmell, Bryan(t). I have no genealogical connection to them that I know of, but I will keep digging. I have wondered if this is “trader DNA” transmitted among local indigenous women, and then into the “poor white” population. So I will never find a tree that says, “Your ancestor is Colson.” My ancestor was Colson, just not legitimately, or in a way that was recorded on paper.
justinpetrone
June 21, 2023 at 2:49 am
I did find this reference:
“Such accounts not only claim Shakespeare and his contemporaries as precedents, but also occasionally reach back to the Old English of a millennium ago (ax ‘ask’ and Frost’s hit ‘it’, both of which continue to linger in pockets of Appalachia). Initially it was outsiders who labeled the speech of mountaineers as Elizabethan; more recently some in the region have adopted the label, to ascribe status to their speech. The idea has taken on a life of its own and become a hardy myth in American culture, part of a popular view that the southern mountains have remained static in time and that their people have maintained a cultural repository of balladry and other music, story cycles (e.g., Jack tales), dance, quilting, and other traditions. One cannot understate the contribution of research-based studies demonstrating the survival in North America–most often in Appalachia–of practices, lore, and traditions now largely or completely extinct in the British Isles.
The work of Cecil Sharp, Olive Dame Campbell, and Maud Karpeles on Child ballads is only the most outstanding example.18”
Apparently, 1,000 years ago, Olde English folks axed questions. And evidently Appalachian folk today are just continuing to blissfully celebrate Shakespeare.
18. Olive Dame Campbell and Cecil J. Sharp, 1917. English Folk-Songs from the Southern Appalachians, Comprising 122 Songs and Ballads, and 323 Tunes (New York and London: Putnam’s; Cecil J. Sharp and Maud Karpeles. Eighty . Eighty English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians (Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 1968).
https://artsandsciences.sc.edu/appalachianenglish/sites/default/files/MontgomeryinClark%26Hayward.pdf
So there!… I guess.
anderson1951
June 21, 2023 at 5:29 am
To your other point Justin… concerning Indians… I, and Jennifer have picked up a tail of a Bryan(t) who seems to have hooked up with an Indian likely in what is now South Carolina. We are not so far along to document it with any accuracy but there does seem to be smoke. The entire Bryan story from Nansemond/Isle of Wight is interesting. Hopefully I can write this up sooner rather than later, (with maps of course). And to your point, this Bryan(t) was a ‘trader’.
anderson1951
June 21, 2023 at 5:35 am